There’s No Such Thing As a Perfect Christian: Anita Renfroe & Hollylu Jostes
Anita Renfroe: If you read the New Testament and the words in red that are Jesus, and you think of Him delivering them with a smile instead of a stern face, you would interpret the New Testament far differently. It is such a wonder to see in the Christian faith now that joy has come into its own as a thing we value.
There’s No Such Thing As a Perfect Christian: Anita Renfroe & Hollylu Jostes – Episode #396
Narrator: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we’re talking to two women who grew up checking off the boxes to be the best Christians they could possibly be, and who would learn later in life would come to know a God who was more concerned with their hearts than with their behaviors.
Comedian Anita Renfroe grew up in a church that didn’t consider laughter to be appropriate within its walls. As a person who always had something funny running through her head, it took her years to realize that joy, which bubbles over into laughter, is actually something that pleases the heart of God. Writer and teacher Hollylu Jostes also grew up in an environment that had very specific notions on what it meant to be a “good Christian.” Basically playing a role that ran counterintuitive to who she was as a person, she struggled to find her authentic self until she learned to know the God who loved her madly, who gave her the freedom to be exactly who she was meant to be.
Let’s start with Anita’s story.
Anita Renfroe: Hi, everybody. I’m Anita Renfroe, and I’m so glad to be here today. I am a follower of Jesus.
I love to bring joy mostly to females, and I’ve been doing it for over twenty years. And when I hear laughter in a room—which is basically agreement from mostly women—it’s very fulfilling for me to bring joy.
Part of my early path to comedy was that I grew up in a very legalistic household of faith. The whole idea was you shouldn’t be laughing, because if you’re laughing it means you’re probably having fun. If you’re having fun, you’re possibly enjoying yourself, which could be a sin. So let’s not even go there. Right? It wasn’t that we didn’t appreciate laughter, it was just very home-based. Like, we can laugh, but oh, definitely never in church. I just never knew that it could please the heart of God if His children laughed, until I had a child.
Finding the Value of Music and Laughter
I remember feeling very drawn to music, obviously, that was very well rewarded in our church system to love music, and I always was making up crazy, silly songs. And in fact, one of my earliest memories is standing on—they had cut down a pecan tree, halfway from the house to wherever we grew the hay down there. And I remember standing on that, feeling like that was my stage. I might have been three or four years old. It is my earliest memory, singing to the cows that were down there. So obviously I had the performance bug, even if I could only get cows to listen, but they were a very good audience. They never walked away. They just stayed right there. No judgment. They didn’t send me emails about how what I said offended them. It was great.
Interestingly, you know, I still pursued music and when I went to college, I was studying pre-law, going to get that law degree, which I feel like that was a very pivotal moment, too, because I was on the debate team. And on the debate team, I learned how to think on my feet, and that was a very big skill that I didn’t know I was going to need later. So when I got out of college, I got married and we had a baby, like fourteen months later.
And law school didn’t seem so important to me then, to be honest. And so, my husband was in seminary and he knew he was going to be a pastor. And I was like, Well, this is fine. Let’s just start the family. So I feel like all that time, I had this party going on in my head, right? I didn’t let it out because it seemed like a liability to my husband’s career for me to say all the things I was thinking, but I always had a funny thread in my head.
So I raised my kids and all that. I did some drivetime radio, which was the first time I was called upon to be funny on purpose I feel like, and that kind of was a breadcrumb on the path. And then maybe fifteen years after that, when my kids were [grown] up and getting in high school, in junior high, women kept telling me at women’s conferences where I’d go play the piano and sing—because it was always cheaper to get somebody that could play and sing instead of hiring two people to come do worship at the women’s conference. There would invariably be a moment during that conference where we had gone through—let’s revisit the 80s for a second. Women’s conferences in the 1980s included a very sad testimony, followed by a very deep teaching, followed by something else that would submerge you emotionally. Right? And I felt like when it came my turn to do worship, it was my job to pull us all up to the surface for air so that we may be ready to receive this next deep thing that’s coming. So I wasn’t doing it purposefully in the sense of, Oh, I think I’m going to turn into a comic now. I was trying to lighten the moment so that we could proceed.
And so I remember being at a women’s event at a church out in the country that had septic, and of course, they would let people go for the breaks and all the women would flush at the same time, and so it was causing problems. And so they gave me the job of announcing that we had to stagger the flushing. You know what I’m saying? Things like that. So, the women’s ministry leaders would say, “You’re hilarious. Can you come back next year and do more of the funny stuff?” And I was the one sitting there saying, “I don’t think that’s funny stuff. I was just talking.” Right? So I love that. And this is one of my favorite things about how the Lord led me into this is that it takes, sometimes, other people to point out things that should be obvious to you, but are not.
“One of my favorite things about how the Lord led me into this is that it takes, sometimes, other people to point out things that should be obvious to you, but are not.” – Anita Renfroe
So it was a very slow ramp from being the music person for a women’s conference to like five years later, them saying, “Hey, we can get somebody else to do music. Will you just come to do thirty minutes of funny? Our ladies really need that.”
And as my kids kept getting older doing that time span, I would get more invitations. So instead of doing one a quarter, I was doing one a month in three years, and then two a month. And then, of course, Women of Faith called and said, “Can you do this intentionally in front of a lot of people?” I was like, “I’m going to give that a try.” I feel it’s a gift when the body of Christ can call that out in each other.
“I feel it’s a gift when the body of Christ can call out [talents] in each other.” – Anita Renfroe
Anita’s Viral “Mom Song” Leads to a TV Show Pilot
I was recording a DVD of new material for the following year of Women of Faith, that I did about moms. You know, it was half about moms, it was predominantly about moms. So I wanted a song to do, and I wrote “The Mom Song,” whatever. And that’s what got me on Good Morning America, because my kids made me put it on YouTube, which I didn’t even honestly know what YouTube was back then. And so then it went viral over the summer. I put it on there on Mother’s Day, and I was going to take it off the Monday after. I didn’t know how YouTube worked, and my kids, half of whom were middle school teenagers, said, “Mom, don’t be stupid. That’s how people find you. You just leave it up there and they share it.”
That got me on Good Morning America because Diane Sawyer’s producer saw it and said, “This is funny. You need to put this on.”
I felt like I had fallen through some trap door. You know, they’re playing my song. It was a very door-opening moment. I always tried to do my best work, hoping that it was universal enough and we had wonderful opportunities, which I’m very thankful for. They did a feature on me in the New York Times, in The Sunday Magazine, which was, I don’t know, a bunch of words—like way more than I thought it should have been—but I’m just saying it was just very in-depth. Some writers from L.A. saw The New York Times interview/story and then they were like, “This would make a funny sitcom pilot.” And so we got to do that, and that was incredible.
Remember Who You Are in the Highs and the Lows
When the career path takes the highs—I think one of the advantages, maybe, that I had in the highs and the lows is the fact that I was a pastor’s wife and a mom, longer than I had been a comedian at that time.
If you believe them when they say you’re the best thing since sliced bread, then you necessarily have to believe them when they say you’re not anymore. So don’t take either one. Know who you are, especially a believer, that your identity is not found in your acceptance in the broader market.
“If you believe them when they say you’re the best thing since sliced bread, then you necessarily have to believe them when they say you’re not anymore. So don’t take either one. Know who you are, especially a believer, that your identity is not found in your acceptance in the broader market.” – Anita Renfroe
The pilot didn’t get picked up because we were in the same year as Modern Family and The Middle, so ABC already had their slate of mom-driven comedies and, you know, ours was pretty good. I was just so thankful we even got in the running.
You’re like, Okay, well, that was that. And now, Lord, what? Right? I’m still standing here with the same gift. What are we doing? What are we doing, Lord? Help, help! So, I would also say very deep in my spirit is the truth—I think it’s a Chuck Swindoll quote—that God isn’t just a little bit sovereign. He’s either sovereign or He’s not. It’s like being pregnant, either you are or you’re not. Is God sovereign or is He not? Pick one. And if you’re going to worry about everything, then you’re not trusting His sovereignty. And you should still always do your best, you just can’t always be the flavor of the week.
And I feel like the Lord will guide me, will guide whomever, as long as you are continuing to move forward. And I know that’s not always possible, and I’m not judging people that have hurts that are so deep they must sit down and take a moment. I’m talking about move, and God will say, “Right or left.” So, I’ve always just believed that He will tell me, and He does.
Staying Connected to the Source
You know, I’m never going to present myself as all together, ever, because it’s not true. So I feel like I’m just going to keep showing up and doing what I do. And it’s in the Lord’s hands if He elevates or chooses not to, that’s His business.
I feel like if you’re connected—which is why I think it’s so important to stay with God daily. He says, “I’m the vine, you’re the branches.” It means there’s a connection that’s supposed to be living and the nutrients transfer and the fruit comes. And if you’re not—the word the Bible uses is “remain.” Remain in me. Stay. Stay with me. God is my source, and I will stay hooked into my source.
So today I’d like to close with this prayer from Jesus Listens. And the date of this one is July 16th, but I love it so much.
Cherished Jesus,
Help me to rest in Your Presence, trusting that nothing will be able to separate me from Your Love. This promise assures me that the worst thing imaginable in my life—that You might stop loving me—is not even in the realm of possibility. I’m grateful that I don’t have to perform at a certain standard in order to earn Your Love, or to keep it. Instead, I can receive this Love as pure gift—flowing out of Your own perfect righteousness. This means that my connection to You is secure for all eternity!
In Your victorious Name,
Amen
Narrator: To learn more about Anita Renfroe or to find out where she will be performing near you, visit her website at www.anitarenfroe.com.
Stay tuned to Hollylu Jostes’ story after a brief message.
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Our next guest is author, speaker, and teacher Hollylu Jostes, who’s taught women’s Bible studies for twenty years. In her upcoming book, Salty, Hollylu examines her struggle with the concept of being a “good Christian” and how she learned the very powerful reason behind why God calls us “the salt of the earth.”
Hollylu Jostes: My name is Hollylu Jostes Coon, and I live in Puyallup, Washington, and I am a speech language pathologist, both in the hospital setting and in the private practice setting.
I grew up in Omaha, Nebraska, and I was pretty much a free range child. I had lots of big dreams because I was told I could do whatever I set my mind to. And so I dreamed about climbing mountains, not necessarily literally, but just that there was some huge task that I was meant to do. And when I found it, I would climb it and I would do it. So that’s pretty much what I dreamed about. And to a large extent, I think that I’m still a mountain climber. I like to sign up for things I don’t know how to do and do it, and I think that’s how I communicate with God the best, is when I’m pushed way out on a limb.
“I like to sign up for things I don’t know how to do and do it, and I think that’s how I communicate with God the best, is when I’m pushed way out on a limb.” – Hollylu Jostes
I grew up in a Christian culture. I grew up in a Christian home, and I went to church three times a week. All my friends were there and so I realized that there was kind of a code of conduct, but whenever I asked questions like, “Why do I never feel like praying?” Or, “Why do I never get out of bed in the morning and want to read my Bible first thing?” Like, I didn’t crave Jesus like I craved pizza. And so I, as a child, would ask those questions. And what was always told to me—even though I now see the wisdom in it—people would say, “Well, are you having a regular quiet time with God?” And I would be like, “Oh, well, that’s the reason I can’t have a regular quiet time, because I’m too distractible, I’m too self-centered.” And so instead of continuing to ask those questions and then being told the same answer, which always sounded like, “Do your behaviors harder, act like Jesus harder.” I decided that I could say the right thing and do the right thing and get the little sticker on my sticker chart in my head and then go off and pretty much do whatever I wanted between Monday and Friday.
I grew up in a culture where women had a very distinct role, and I was kind of loud and messy and scruffy. And so I was constantly wanting to be what I thought the Proverbs 31 woman was, which was somebody who wasn’t loud and scruffy, and I had completely misinterpreted scripture. I don’t blame the culture that I grew up in because they rewarded people who were more of a certain personality type. And because as humans we cannot see the heart, so we judge behavior. It’s a rational thing to do. So as a child I saw certain behaviors rewarded so I was always trying to be rewarded, not understanding that I was made different.
For a big part of my life, I just thought that being a good Christian was super complicated and difficult because I could never achieve perfection, and so I would just kind of fake it. And what’s the point, you know? I said all the right things. I went to all the places. I carried my Bible all around. But inside, I was lacking the internal change of transformation. And pretty much I would make my life plan and ask God to come along and bless it. It’s much easier to act like a good Christian than to live like one. I loved God, just not understanding that He wanted all of me, that I had to give up my will to run things my way.
And so I wanted to be me, but I couldn’t figure out how to be me. And it wasn’t until I surrendered all of me, all of my hopes, all of my dreams, everything—I chose God not because He was saving me from hell, but because He is God. I chose Him because He’s God. He is the only rational choice, and then everything falls under that. And once that is in the right place, then you are free to be who God created you to be.
“I chose Him because He’s God. He is the only rational choice, and then everything falls under that. And once that is in the right place, then you are free to be who God created you to be.” – Hollylu Jostes
Analogy of Salt in the Bible
The salt analogy is woven all through the Bible [Matthew 5:13], and if you look at the properties of salt, it’s a powerful agent of change. And so when we’re considered salt, we’re not here to make things taste a little bit better. We are here to be powerful agents of change as directed by our God.
And if we are living out our calling in authentic ways and we are not distracted by adhering to a set of good Christian rules, but we actually allow God to be the center of everything that we do, then we present something to the world that is not confusing, it’s attractional. And I think that as God followers, if we live out our calling in whatever sphere that we’re in on a daily basis—like I work at a hospital. And so this is my mission field, this is where I shine bright for God, here, just today, in this place. I think that is what He’s calling us to do.
I think when you grow up in a culture where you’re judged by your behaviors, it’s easy just to stay there and to not understand that God is much less concerned with your behavior than the transformation of your heart. And once you understand that God, who makes you, who knows you, who is so much for you, who’s madly in love with you—pursuing full and total authenticity with Jesus is the only way to freedom.
I think it’s important to connect with God daily because He is the fuel. He is what gets us through our day. He’s what gives our day meaning and He’s what infuses our day with joy. He will meet you in these meager little moments that we offer Him and He will grow them. And then before you know it, you’ll be like, I can’t skip this. This is life-sustaining.
“I think it’s important to connect with God daily because He is the fuel. He is what gets us through our day. He’s what gives our day meaning and He’s what infuses our day with joy. He will meet you in these meager little moments that we offer Him and He will grow them.” – Hollylu Jostes
Narrator: To learn more about Hollylu, please visit www.hollyluspeaks.com, and be sure to check out her book, Salty: The Deconstruction of a Good Christian.
If you’d like to hear more stories about being authentic to who God made us to be, check out our interview with singer Rachael Lampa.
Next week: Sydney McLaughlin-Levrone
Next time on the Jesus Calling Podcast, we’ll hear from record-breaking Olympic hurdler and sprinter Sydney McLaughlin-Levrone, who shares how she dealt with the anxiety that comes by always striving to be at the top of your game.
Sydney McLaughlin-Levrone: I think God really helped to rework my mind and my heart to truly put Him on the throne of my life. And because of that, I was able to reprioritize how I viewed track and field and how I prepared for races, how I viewed wins versus losses. And it’s brought so much more joy to the experience of being a professional athlete, whereas before it was a constant worry every single day of, Am I ever going to be enough?
