Dr. Sarita Lyons: God is so good and He’s so big that He can handle all of those different seasons of life that we are in as we are healing and working through church hurt. Sometimes the healing that we are looking for is literally one prayer away. 

Our Healing Could Be Just One Prayer Away: Dr. Sarita Lyons & Lisa Victoria Fields – Episode #435

Narrator: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we explore the journeys of two remarkable women who have navigated the complexities of faith, community, and personal struggles. 

First, we’ll hear from Dr. Sarita Lyons, Director of Discipleship and Women’s Ministry at Epiphany Fellowship Church in Philadelphia. Sarita shares her deep love for Scripture, and how that juxtaposed with her personal, challenging experiences in a church setting. She attempts to shed light on the complexities of church relationships and the importance of healing and restoration within the faith community.

Later in the episode, we’ll hear from Lisa Victoria Fields, founder and president of the Jude 3 Project. Lisa went from an aspiring Wall Street financier to a passionate Christian apologist. She discusses the significance of wrestling with faith and how her work equips others to explore and affirm their own convictions.

Let’s begin with Dr. Sarita’s story.

Dr. Sarita Lyons: My name is Dr. Sarita Lyons and I am a wife to Pastor Mark Lyons, who’s a great husband, also an airline pilot. We’ve been married almost twenty-four years and we are the proud parents of four children. And I have the privilege of serving the local church as the director of Discipleship and Women’s Ministry here in Philadelphia at Epiphany Fellowship Church under the leadership of Pastor Eric Mason. 

I’m born and raised in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and I am what you would call a quintessential church girl. My father is still a pastor of a local church, and my mother—who went home to be with the Lord in January—were really, really strong Christians. They loved the Lord. Church was a central part of my life, and I was always at the church for a variety of things. And I would say my church family really was a family. It just wasn’t some place to go on Sunday. These were the people who locked arms with my mom and dad and were committed to being part of raising me and nurturing me and loving on me and disciplining me. And so it literally was a second home. It meant a lot to be a part of the church. 

Drifting From the Church

I think sometimes when people struggle in their faith, when they drift, when we get in all kinds of trouble, we tend to think, That person must not have been someone who really cared about the Lord, or who took their faith seriously. That was someone who was probably wildin’ out and not doing the right thing and running the street. And that’s really not who I was. 

As I got older and got to college and even drifted away from the faith, I wouldn’t have looked like the type of young person that would have gotten into that level of spiritual trouble in college because I was so committed and a part of the local church.  

Church hurt seems very self-explanatory. It’s just any kind of emotional, physical, psychological, and spiritual harm that happens in a place where there’s supposed to be a presumption of safety. And church hurt can be as minimal as a kind of garden variety offense between a brother and sister or sisters among sisters and brothers among brothers. And then it can be as egregious as physical harm, sexual abuse, molestation, rape, those sorts of things. So it’s really any harm. 

And I think one of the terms we don’t talk about often that is also a part of church hurt is spiritual abuse. And I believe we should think of spiritual abuse a little differently, but it’s the actual misuse of Scripture to control or manipulate or cause harm. So there are plenty of ways that we can experience church hurt. 

What To Do When Something Goes Wrong at Church

Sometimes you’re hurt so bad in the church, it’s actually best for you to leave and be safe. One of the recommendations that I provide is if you’re trying to even discern whether or not you should leave or stay, then what you should do is first give every house—give every church and its leadership—an opportunity to do the right thing. I think sometimes we can have a presumption that if some offense or injury happened at a church, then from the top down, from the leadership to the back pew, everything is corrupt, everything is wrong. No one loves me. And many times, leadership and other people just don’t even know about the offense and pain you’ve experienced. And so before we decide to quickly leave, I would say try to find a way to make connections with leaders to share what your experience was, to see if there’s a path created for restoration. Give the house a chance to do the right thing before presuming and assuming that they would not. 

“Before we decide to quickly leave [the church], I would say try to find a way to make connections with leaders to share what your experience was, to see if there’s a path created for restoration. Give the house a chance to do the right thing before presuming and assuming that they would not.” – Dr. Sarita Lyons 

I definitely believe that counseling and psychologists and people who are in the social science field can be a great help to people who are struggling with church hurt. And we need to not be afraid or think we’re not being good Christians if we go seek professional help. I believe all science ultimately comes from God and should be submitted under the authority and wisdom of God. He cares about us prospering and being healthy psychologically as well. 

 And so defining clearly what the situation is and getting help from the community and not isolating are really, really key in trying to make good choices and discern what to do next. Those two entities can work hand in hand and really give you a great balance of a plan for healing and moving forward that honors God and honors the lived experience that you had and your desire to heal. 

“Defining clearly what the situation is and getting help from the community and not isolating are really, really key in trying to make good choices and discern what to do next.” – Dr. Sarita Lyons 

Talk to God About Your Hurt

I think prayer is critical. You know, one of the things about hurt is sometimes we talk to everyone else—we even talk to ourselves—but often we don’t talk to God, you know? And I think it’s because when we get hurt, particularly in the church, there’s this part of us that’s like, “Dad God, where were you? Why did you let that happen?” And I think any time we have to deal with the vicissitudes of life and evil and harm when it comes our way, whether it’s in the church or outside of the church, we’re always wrestling to reconcile with God being God—His omnipotence, meaning He had all power to stop it right there.  

And so because sometimes it’s hard for us to see God’s grace and goodness and perfect will in the midst of harm and tragedy and hurt, we can just stop talking to God. Like, Why talk to a God who let that happen to me? But God is so good and He’s so big that He can handle all of those different seasons of life that we are in as we are healing and working through church hurt. Sometimes the healing that we are looking for is literally one prayer away.

“God is so good and He’s so big that He can handle all of those different seasons of life that we are in as we are healing and working through church hurt. Sometimes the healing that we are looking for is literally one prayer away.” – Dr. Sarita Lyons 

The bottom line is keep talking to God. Keep talking to a God who hears, who knows, who understands, and who actually has the very help that we need so that we can get better, so that we can heal, and so that we can move on. 

Our daily devotionals, our time in God’s Word, our prayer life, our meditation, all of our spiritual practices are not an initiation as much as they are a response to a God who pursues us first. 

I’ll be reading from Jesus Listens, January 28th:

Compassionate Jesus,

Help me remember how safe and secure I am in You. The Bible assures me that Your Presence with me is a fact — totally independent of my feelings.

Though Your continual Presence is guaranteed, simply knowing this truth doesn’t automatically change my emotions. When I forget to focus on You, I’m vulnerable to fear, anxiety, loneliness, and other unwanted feelings. Yet I’ve found that awareness of Your Presence with me can dispel those painful feelings and replace them with Your Peace. Please train me in the discipline of walking attentively with You through each day.

In Your calming Name, 

Amen

Narrator: To learn more about Dr. Sarita Lyons, please visit www.saritalyons.com, and be sure to check out her book, Church Girl: A Gospel Vision to Encourage and Challenge Black Christian Women, available now at your favorite retailer. 

Stay tuned to Lisa Victoria Fields’ story after a brief message.

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Our next guest is Lisa Victoria Fields, founder and president of the Jude 3 Project. Lisa shares the trajectory of starting as a finance major dreaming of Wall Street, to becoming a passionate advocate for faith and apologetics. She delves through the questions that led her to pivot her career, and how she now helps others explore their own beliefs.

Lisa Victoria Fields: My name is Lisa Fields. I’m the founder and the president of the Jude 3 Project, which is a Christian apologetics organization helping specifically black Christians and skeptics. What we do when we focus on black Christians is help equip them to know what they believe and why they believe it, and then help them around their questions about the faith. 

From Finance to Apologetics

People always want to know, “Lisa, how did you get into doing this work of the Jude 3 Project?” My father’s a pastor. I’ve been in church my whole life. I played the stock market game in fifth grade. I was in a magnet program, and I fell in love with the stock market. And so from fifth grade on, I said, “I want to be a stockbroker when I grow up.” After I graduated from college, I wanted to move to New York City and work for Wall Street. That was my whole plan. Well, that is not the plan that God had for me, apparently.

I was an investment finance major. I had a free elective. I was like, I’ll take New Testament. I want to learn some more terms around the faith. My parents had taught me the Bible, but I was like, I want to learn some more theological terms. I took the New Testament class, [and it] completely blew my mind because I never thought critically about what I believed and why I believed it because I grew up in a Christian bubble, and so I just never questioned my faith deeply. And that was the first time that I had to wrestle with what I believed and why I believed it. 

And I fell in love with the discipline. And I was really like, Okay, this is so helpful. But as I was reading apologetics books, listening to apologists, I remember going home one night and just crying out to God like, “God, I just don’t know what to believe. I don’t know if your Word is true, I don’t know anything.” And I played the Bible lottery. And for those who don’t know what the Bible lottery is, it’s just when you ask God a question, and you’re like, “God, show me something in Scripture,” and you open up the Bible and hope it lands on something good. 

So I opened the Bible and it landed on John 6:67-69, where Jesus looked at the disciples, and many of them left. And then He looked at Peter, and he said, “Will you also go?” And Peter said, “Where can I go? You have the words of eternal life.” And in that moment something clicked for me. I didn’t know all the answers, but it was like, Where can I go? This is the foundation. This is the Scriptures that I have held dear. This is what has held my life together, held my family’s life together, held the people at the church’s life together. And so that moment clicked for me. I don’t know all of the answers to the questions my professor’s throwing at me. But I’m going to commit my life to finding the answers and also helping other people find the answers as well. And that was a shift for me, so I ended up switching my major from investment finance to communications and religious studies.

Struggles of the Mind Versus the Heart

I was studying to be a ministry leader to do the work I’m doing now, but I had some questions in my own soul that I was wrestling with. I heard about terrorists blowing up children, and that really rocked me because I’m like, God, why wouldn’t You protect them? What are You doing up there? Don’t You see these innocent children being murdered? And I just couldn’t reconcile. We were studying the problem of evil in class, and I could give all the philosophical, theological, apologetic answers. And for me, I didn’t find them emotionally satisfying. I was on the verge of like, God, can I trust that You even exist? I know I’m in school studying, but right now, I don’t know if You exist, because how can You be loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, and You not intervene? Because I started to think about, like, my own personal experience. I have great parents, and I know because they love me, if they had the power to intervene if something like that would happen in my life, and if they had the knowledge, they would not let that happen. 

So I was wrestling with God. If you love me more than my parents, and you love these children more than my parents, how could you let that happen to them? And so I went to my New Testament professor, and I just kind of laid out what I’ve laid out before you today, and I was expecting him to give me some deep theological, philosophical, apologetic answer because he has a PhD in New Testament. And he also was the chair of the apologetics program to help people defend the faith. So I was like, If anybody would have the answers, he would. And the only thing he said to me was, “I struggle with that, too.” And it was an interesting response, but it was the response I needed to know that the wrestling I was experiencing within myself was a common experience. And somebody who had done all this study on the Bible, on Scripture, had wrestled with arguments, can still wrestle with that. 

I think if you don’t feel the permission to wrestle with God on these very complex and painful issues, then you will turn to things like drugs, alcohol, an unhealthy relationship with food, trying to cope with the pain that you’re experiencing. And so I think you need a space to wrestle with God so He can be the one to give you the answer to the questions you’re facing. And the answers might not always come the way you want. 

“I think you need a space to wrestle with God so He can be the one to give you the answer to the questions you’re facing.” – Lisa Victoria Fields

Wrestling with God really is the key to growing in your faith. I remember my friend said that whenever we want to know someone, when we meet someone we’re going to date, or when we meet a new friend, the first thing we do when we meet them is ask them questions, because we know that we can only get to know them through questions. And our relationship with God is no different.

And it was through that wrestling that my faith actually got stronger, and I actually was able to communicate my beliefs to others. I always say that a faith that cannot be tested cannot be trusted. And if we believe that God’s Word and God is true, then truth can always be put to the test and be found to be true. I say it to my friends and people all the time and say to myself, you have to get it out your mouth to get it out of your heart. He uproots those things and through the tears and the frustration, He brings healing on the other side. And so for those who are like, “Man, I can’t say what I’m really feeling towards God, He’s going to strike me down,” He already knows. And when you articulate it, that is the key to the beginning of your freedom. 

“A faith that cannot be tested cannot be trusted.” – Lisa Victoria Fields

You Don’t Have To Struggle Alone

I would say for those who are listening, lean in. I know you’ve probably been through some painful circumstances: a loss of a parent, a loss of a child, the loss of a job, loss of your health. You may have been abandoned, abused, and you have very valid questions. And you don’t know what to do with this pain. And you feel like, I’ve tried Christianity, I’ve tried faith, I’ve tried God. And I’m still grappling. Take all of your frustrations to Him. He can meet you in those restorations and He can meet you in conversations and relationships with other people. God places our healing sometimes in the conversations we have. In James, He says, “Confess your faults one to another, pray for one another, so that you can be healed.” That tells me that part of our healing comes from communicating our frustrations and our doubts and our pains to others, and then taking those in prayer to God. 

“Part of our healing comes from communicating our frustrations and our doubts and our pains to others, and then taking those in prayer to God.” – Lisa Victoria Fields 

There’s so much God has done just in the last few years by me going to my friends, going to trusted people, and sharing things like, “I’m mad at God.” Yes, I vent my frustrations to Him and tell Him how I’m disappointed with what He is allowed in my life. But when I go to others and share that, they start to share what they’ve experienced, and we pray together. The amount of healing and wholeness that has come in my life—I’ve experienced healing, but they have experienced healing as well… don’t discount not just wrestling with God alone, but wrestling in community because there’s freedom and healing when we do that. 

Jesus Listens, June 29th: 

Triumphant God, 

Your Word poses the rhetorical question: “If God is for us, who can be against us?” I trust that You are indeed for me since I am Your follower. I realize this verse does not mean that no one will ever oppose me. It does mean that having You on my side is the most important fact of my existence. 

Regardless of what losses I experience, I am on the winning side. You have already won the decisive victory through Your death and resurrection! You are the eternal Victor, and I share in Your triumph because I belong to You forever. No matter how much adversity I encounter on my journey to heaven, nothing can ultimately prevail against me! 

Knowing that my future is utterly secure is changing my perspective dramatically. Instead of living in defensive mode— striving to protect myself from suffering— I am learning to follow You confidently, wherever You lead. You are teaching me not only to seek Your Face and follow Your lead but to enjoy this adventure of abandoning myself to You. I rejoice that You are with me continually and You are always ready to help me in times of trouble. 

In Your magnificent Name, Jesus, 

Amen

Narrator: To learn more about Lisa Victoria Fields, visit www.jude3project.org, and check out her new book, When Faith Disappoints: The Gap Between What We Believe And What We Experience, wherever you buy books.

If you’d like to hear more stories about wrestling with our faith, check out our interview with Erwin McManus.

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Next week: Demi-Leigh Tebow

Next time on the Jesus Calling Podcast, we’ll hear from former Miss Universe Demi-Leigh Tebow, who shares how she faced an identity crisis after crowning her successor, and how she turned to God for confidence in who He made her to be.

Demi-Leigh Tebow: You know, we constantly need that reminder of Whose we are, even though we know it. We read Scripture, we memorize verses. But that doesn’t always equate to fully understanding or even fully believing. And something that has been so important to me in my life is surrounding myself with people that can constantly point me back to the truth.