Learning to Thrive in the Struggle: BeBe Winans & Tasha Cobbs Leonard
This episode mentions suicide and may not be suitable for all listeners.
BeBe Winans: When I look back and I look at some of the struggles—a friend of mine played a really incredible role in my life. She said to me, “BeBe, learn to enjoy the struggle. A lot of people want to get to the top, and they don’t understand that it’s in the struggle where you learn who you are. It’s in the struggle where you learn who people are, and the struggle where you learn most of all, who God is.”
Learning to Thrive in the Struggle: BeBe Winans & Tasha Cobbs Leonard – Episode #440
Narrator: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we’ll hear from BeBe Winans, a celebrated figure in gospel and R&B music from the renowned Winans family, known for their deep-rooted musical legacy. Raised in a household steeped in gospel traditions and surrounded by the influences of Motown, Bebe experienced some of the ups and downs of the music scene as he and his sister, CeCe Winans, ultimately rose to fame as a beloved singing duo.
Later in the episode, we’ll hear from Tasha Cobbs Leonard, a powerful worship leader, pastor, and entrepreneur. Raised in a faith-filled family, Tasha was encouraged by her father, a pastor, to embrace her gifts. A “divine setup” led to her first album, and she went on to inspire millions with songs like “Break Every Chain,” which grew from her own battle with depression.
Let’s begin with BeBe’s story.
BeBe Winans: I’m BeBe Winans, and I am part of the Winans family from Detroit, Michigan. I was raised in a family of ten siblings and ended up in Nashville, Tennessee as a part of the music scene, and music has been my world.
Early Gospel and Motown Influences
We were surrounded by Motown, yet my father wouldn’t allow any secular music in our household. It was only gospel music. So we grew up listening to the different quartets, the Mighty Clouds of Joy and Shirley Caesar and Andraé Crouch at one point entered our life and he became our hero. Andraé Crouch & The Disciples, along with The Hawkins Family. So in my household there was nothing but gospel music, but when we stepped outside, you couldn’t help but be influenced by Motown. We lived on a street called Whittingham, and a street in front of us was Santa Barbara. And when it would snow, we would rush as fast as we could to shovel the snow for Smokey Robinson. He lived a block in front of us. Stevie Wonder lived about four blocks behind us, and a couple of Four Tops lived on the other side of the street. So [we were] surrounded by the influence of Motown, the writing, and the singers. But in David Winans’ house, there was nothing but gospel music.
When it comes to the musicians in my family, there’s ten siblings. And out of that, we had probably four different entities—The Winans, which were four of my brothers, me and my sister CeCe, and then my brother Daniel was a solo artist. And then my younger sisters, Angie and Debbie, were duet artists. And then my mom and dad, after they sacrificed their careers for ours, came together and did a couple of albums.
But growing up in Detroit, Michigan in church, both of my parents sang, but singing was just a part of everyday life for us. It was something we absolutely loved to do, whether in school or in church, and we never knew it would be our careers.
A Leap of Faith Opportunity
At one point in life, my brothers became recording artists and they left Detroit, Michigan. And that was a scary moment because it was on that Sunday that the pastor turned around and said, “We’re going to pray for the Winans brothers who are leaving, and BeBe’s going to take over the choir.” And I was like, “Which BeBe? Me?” It was a frightening moment.
But after they left, they recorded with Andraé Crouch and there was a young man named Howard McQuarrie. He left Los Angeles after years passed and went to Charlotte, North Carolina, where he joined up with Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, who became the musical director for that television show, The PTL Club. And he called my brother, Marvin, and asked if me and CeCe could come down and audition, which we didn’t think was going to happen because my father didn’t allow any of us to spend the night across the street. So there’s no way he’s going to allow me and my sister to move down to Charlotte, North Carolina, by ourselves. At that point, I was seventeen and CeCe was fifteen. And so long story short, he did, and we went down. My mom took us down to Charlotte, North Carolina, from Detroit on a Greyhound bus. And we got there, we auditioned and came back home. I think two weeks later we got a phone call that they wanted CeCe, but they were going to pass on the gentleman, which was me. And my father said, “There’s no way that’s going to happen. We can just scrap that. No way she’s going out there by herself.” I said, “Dad, I think you ought to give CeCe this opportunity, and I’ll move down there with her.” And for some reason my father said, “Okay.” And we moved down and from that moment on, our journey began.
BeBe and CeCe Become a Duo
Being rejected sometimes is not as bad as people think it is. I knew there was a purpose for CeCe, and my father used to always say, “One Winans win, all Winans win. One Winans loses, all Winans lose.”
PTL was a learning ground for me and my sister. I knew He had a call on me, as well, to sing. And that’s how actually the journey of Bebe and CeCe started, because we weren’t a duet. And one day Jim came in, he had heard a song on the radio, and came to the rehearsal. “I want you guys to learn this song, change a little bit of the lyrics.” And he pointed at me and CeCe and said, “I want you guys to do it as a duet.” And that was “Love Lift Us Up Where We Belong.” And that’s how me and my sister became a duet.
When I look back and I look at some of the struggles, the racism that we met, the struggle of really becoming an adult and responsible… you know, there were times that I wanted to do certain things, and I couldn’t because I was CeCe’s babysitter. I was like, “I’ve got to go home because she wants to go home.” But I look back now and say, “Wow, what an incredible time in those five years.” So your gift will make room. What you have to go through is okay. It does work out if you believe and continue to have faith in what God called you to do.
“Your gift will make room. What you have to go through is okay. It does work out if you believe and continue to have faith in what God called you to do.” – BeBe Winans
One day, Keith Thomas came to PTL to have a meeting with Howard McQuarrie, the musical director. I didn’t know who Keith Thomas was. And at the last minute before the meeting, Howard came to me and said, “Hey, Jim just called me in for a meeting. I can’t meet this guy. Please do me a favor and go in and meet with him for me.” And I was like, “That makes no sense. He didn’t come down to meet me. Why would I go in and meet with him?” And he said, “Just do me a favor, please, and do it.” And I said, “Okay,” not knowing that I was getting ready to meet a young man that would play such a crucial role in me and my sister’s music career. But I remember walking in and introducing myself. He was a piano player. I said, “Play me something.” And when he started playing, the chords he played just really struck me in a way that I can’t explain.
So after years would pass, I came down to Nashville, Tennessee to meet with Keith Thomas, and we started that journey of meeting with various record companies to see if someone would be interested in signing me and my sister, and a lot of doors were shut. They were closed tight. The last record company we met with was Payroll Records, and they said yes.
One of the things that was important to me when me and my sister first started recording was to display each of us as a solo artist on the duet albums. They weren’t happy with that decision. So I had to push to make that happen. On every BeBe and CeCe duet album, you had a solo from each of us on one of those albums, because I knew that we would do things as solo artists down the road, so it gave us a foundation through our duet careers as a soloist. And when it came to that moment, I said, “Ladies first. Go for it, honey.”
I’ve always been more passionate about writing than singing. So I enjoyed being behind the scenes and supporting her on her solo journey. Through that, I found moments years down the road to start a solo career, but I didn’t tour on any of my records. I just got allergic to touring. So I had a wonderful time stepping away from that part of the industry. And I started writing. I’ve written a Broadway musical, and just continue to do a lot of things behind the scenes, little acting here on Broadway, various roles. And so I’ve just enjoyed that part of it as I recorded a couple more solo albums.
And it continues to this day. I’m amazed at the doors that God opens, really. And I find myself in places that I never dreamed of and working with people I never thought I would.
“I’m amazed at the doors that God opens. I find myself in places that I never dreamed of and working with people I never thought I would.” – BeBe Winans
Years ago, I never will forget CeCe and I received a letter from a fan, and he shared in the letter that he was going to commit suicide—that he had given up in life, and on life, and decided to listen to our music before he took his life. And after he listened, he decided to give life another try. That right there taught me the importance of what we were doing and the power of music. So I don’t take music lightly. If I don’t believe in the song, I don’t sing the song. And so these days, through the different social platforms, I receive different letters or different messages that really say, “You just don’t know. This is what happened. I achieve this through your song. I sang your song when I got married. Your song played when I lost my father.” There’s such a roller coaster of emotions that we are blessed with because of what God has done through us, through music. It really never gets old to hear what our music has done for others. I really do believe this, that if it comes from the heart, it goes to the heart. So I learned to be honest with what I say through my music.
“There’s such a roller coaster of emotions that we are blessed with because of what God has done through us, through music. It really never gets old to hear what our music has done for others.” – BeBe Winans
I’m very excited about the new single, “Father In Heaven [Right Now].”
All of us are born with a purpose. There’s no mistakes out there. And so what that purpose is, it’s important for you to find out, to not give up. And I’m excited to know that some people, through what I’ve done, have found their purpose. And so I encourage everyone to always understand I’m not a mistake, but I am a child of God. And there is a word called destiny that is attached to my name.
It is important to me every day to read God’s Word, every day to pray and ask for guidance. I made my mind up years ago whether I’m out of the country, wherever I am on Sunday morning, no matter how tired I am, I’m going to be at somebody’s church. Whether in South Africa, whether in China, in Seoul, no matter where I am. That is a commitment to God because I need Him more than ever. I don’t miss a Sunday. I really believe when God says to whom much is given, much is required [Luke 12:48]. And over the years, I understood that the more God does for me, the more I need to be closer to Him. We have to renew ourselves. I’ve learned the Word of God is so important. Prayer is so important.
I’m excited to read a prayer from Jesus Listens, November 23rd:
Gracious God,
Thank You for showering so many blessings on me! Everything I have is a gift from You, including each breath I breathe. I rarely think about the wonder of inhaling Your Life continually. Yet it was only when You breathed the breath of Life into Adam that he became a living being.
Sometimes I like to sit quietly in Your Presence, thanking You silently each time I inhale and affirming my trust in You as I exhale. I’ve found that the longer I do this, the more relaxed I become.
Lord, please help me to appreciate and thank You for blessings I often overlook—birds and trees, light and colors, loved ones and daily comforts. The list is endless! The more I look for good things in my life, the clearer my vision becomes.
Of course, my greatest gratitude is for eternal Life, which is mine because I believe in You. This priceless forever-gift fills me with ever-increasing Joy in Your Presence!
In Your generous Name, Jesus,
Amen
Narrator: To learn more about BeBe Winans, follow him on social media, and be sure to check out his new single, Father In Heaven [Right Now], wherever you get your music.
Stay tuned to Tasha Cobbs Leonard’s story after a brief message.
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Our next guest is worship leader and pastor Tasha Cobbs Leonard. Tasha opens up about the gift of communication and song her family modeled to her from early in life, the “divine setup” that led to her first album, and how her experiences with alcoholism and depression have shown her time and time again that God can break every chain.
Tasha Cobbs Leonard: Hi, my name is Tasha Cobbs Leonard. I am a wife, a mother, a pastor, a worship leader, and entrepreneur. I believe it is my purpose to help push others into their divine purpose on earth, so I’m super excited about spreading the good news.
Tasha’s Gift for Communication and Song
I am originally from a small town called Jesup, Georgia. It’s in southeast Georgia, down by Savannah, Jacksonville. So I grew up on the coast, and I grew up in a family of believers. My father started to pastor when I was ten years old. And very early on, my father I believe recognized the gift of communication in me. So at a young age, my father began to cultivate me to preach and share the gospel of Jesus around the world.
Growing up in the home of a pastor, for me, it was rewarding. It has been a blessing to even who I am now. Because my parents, they are for real, for real about their relationship with Christ, to see them walk out their lives with integrity, with purpose, and being intentional about showing God’s love to everyone they encounter… My father would actually end all of our services with a statement. He would say, “Love everybody.” And it was literally what he lived and exemplified, before me and my brother.
It wasn’t until later, at about fifteen years old, that the singing gift would take the forefront. I grew up in a family of singers, so my mom, my aunts, all of my cousins—we have a lot of singers in our family. And at the time, I wasn’t necessarily a lead vocalist. I was leaning more towards, like, teaching an instrument. So I would play the piano.
I think we live in a world where we are consumed with, “Hey, this is the beginning, and this is the end.” And a lot of people don’t really embrace the process in the middle. But I think in the process is when we gain all of the knowledge, all of the wisdom that we need in order to be great stewards of what God entrusted us with.
“We live in a world where we are consumed with, ‘Hey, this is the beginning, and this is the end.’ A lot of people don’t really embrace the process in the middle. But I think in the process is when we gain all of the knowledge, all of the wisdom that we need in order to be great stewards of what God entrusted us with.” – Tasha Cobbs Leonard
I was leading worship at my church in Atlanta. I was just excited. I love the local church. And so I would lead worship every week and we would write these songs. At the time, those songs would begin to spread and other churches would start singing them. And, you know, that was exciting. I never thought, Hey, well, let me take this and do an album. It was just not my thought. It was nowhere in the back of my mind.
I believe it’s always intentional on God’s part to place people in your life who see things in you that you may not see in that season. I call it a divine setup. I had two friends who reached out to me and said, “Hey girl, we want to take you out to lunch.” We hadn’t caught up in a while. We meet at a little shop and we’re ordering. And out of nowhere they say to me, “So when are you going to do this album?” And I was like, “What are you talking about? What album? I’m comfortable leading worship in our church.”
“I believe it’s always intentional on God’s part to place people in your life who see things in you that you may not see in that season.” – Tasha Cobbs Leonard
And so they saw this gift on me, and then they saw that it was much greater than just my local church in Atlanta. And so when I went home, though I was denying it—hands down denying it—I could not shake their words. All night long, I just sat up just like, Oh my goodness, I’ve never done an album. I’ve never seen anybody record an album. But some things are just God. They’re just God inspired.
And so I sat up at night and I began to write out a plan for a live recording that would happen in like three or four months after that. I knew nothing about the timelines and how long it took to do everything. I know now, looking back on that, that it was absolutely a miracle in itself that I could pull this off. I wrote a full plan and did a budget, and I brought it to my pastor the next day. And of course, he’s thinking, Where in the world did this come from? But he, too, knew that there was something greater inside of me. So I did an independent project called Smile. That album was a blessing to so many people. We put it on YouTube, I started Googling, “How do I get this on Apple?” Back then it was CD Baby, “How do you put this on CD Baby?” I Googled, “Where do you order just the sleeve?” The things that people don’t think about. The sleeves that the CDs back then would go in had designers. I didn’t have a designer. I had somebody who designed an album cover for me that I found on MySpace. You know, it was just complete ground work.
Though many days I was discouraged and I didn’t know what I was doing, I know that God was with me every step of the way, and there were people who jumped on board from around the world. I had never seen their faces, just knew their names from MySpace. And they were just supporters. They believed in what God had called me to do. That was about twelve years ago now. I’m still honored that God would put His grace on my life to do ministry in this manner.
“Though many days I was discouraged and I didn’t know what I was doing, I know that God was with me every step of the way.” – Tasha Cobbs Leonard
A Father’s Last Moments to Honor His Daughter
My father was super committed to the local church. In 2013, I believe, I was nominated for several awards. I was nominated for two Grammys and I believe four Stellars. And during that time… it’s always on the weekend. So I was just trying to prepare myself that, Daddy may not be able to make it, but it’s okay, I’m going to be fine.
And so for my father to get in a car and drive to Nashville and leave the church, it was so much more than any award I could have received that weekend. While I was up on the stage, I looked out and I saw my parents in the audience, and it was just so rewarding to see their support and the pride on their face, how their daughter was representing the kingdom. And so that night I won three, I believe, three Stellars.
We were sitting up and we were celebrating in my pastor’s hotel room, just a few of us kind of hanging out, and my pastor says, “Well, call Dad and see if he wants to come down.” And I was like, “My goodness, Daddy came to Nashville. I don’t think he’ll come into your hotel room at 3:00 in the morning.” However, I shot him a text and I said, “Hey, you and Mom should come hang out with us.” And immediately he responded and said, “We’re on the way.” And so again, I’m thinking, What is going on? My dad came down and he was a man of very few words. I mean, if he spoke, it was either going to be very profound or it was going to be hilarious. And so that night he had us in stitches just laughing all night long. I mean, he gave us everything that he had.
And I remember when they were leaving the hotel room, getting on the elevator—my dad was a carpenter. So he had built a curio for all of the awards that he believed his daughter was going to win. And I promised him, “Hey, if I win an award, you can take it back with you.” And so he had three of my Stellars in his hand, and I said, “You know what, Dad? Take one of them out. I want to snap a picture with you holding your award.” So he took it out and he’s just beaming with pride on his face. And I snapped the picture.
He turned around and got on the elevator, and that would be the last time I would see my dad here on earth.
I realized that he was leaving with me the last lesson that he would leave with his daughter: that when life gets tough, when your heart is broken, when you don’t feel like you have the strength to keep pressing forward, I want you to dig down deep, Tasha. And I want you to do it anyway. Do what you are called to do. Do what God has instructed you to do. I want you to dig down deep and do it anyway.
I reached out to Naomi Raine from Maverick City Music when I had this thought, like, “Hey, I want to release a song that I feel like would speak to this.” And she penned an amazing song that has been such a blessing to so many people.
I believe the song just kind of puts all of those words in a short form, you know, don’t tell me I can’t when I know I can, and I’m going to do it anyway.
I wanted to give people the last lesson that my father left with me, that you can do what God has called you to do, even when it seems like it’s tough and you can’t make it. Dig down deep, and do it anyway.
Love Beyond the Walls of Church
When we study the life of Jesus, Jesus was often communicating and surrounded by people who other people would turn their nose up at, or other people would say, “They’re not holy enough for you to be in conversation with.” But as a believer, our number one assignment is to go out and to compel others to come into the love of Jesus Christ. And sometimes the only way that we’re able to do that is that we go to where they are.
Some people, they’re not going to walk into our churches. We have to go and find them. And that’s what the Scripture says, to go to the hedges and the highways [Luke 14:23]. I think a lot of times if you study the Scripture and you study the Word of God for yourself, you will find that Jesus actually encouraged us to go out and to share His love to those who needed it.
I started praying a prayer before I go on any stage—whether I’m speaking or if I’m singing—that God will use me like He’s never used me before, that we would experience Him in a fresh way this time. That’s my prayer, that I don’t want what happened yesterday. I want a fresh experience of You and Your presence. And every single time, He does it. There’s never been a time where we go out and it’s stale. It’s always something fresh, it’s always something new.
I know that God has called me to go beyond the four walls of the church with my global assignment, and it’s something that I’ll do until Jesus comes back to get me.
“I know that God has called me to go beyond the four walls of the church with my global assignment, and it’s something that I’ll do until Jesus comes back to get me.” – Tasha Cobbs Leonard
Jesus Listens, June 28th:
Dear Jesus,
You are the Risen One—my living God. I celebrate the Joy of serving a Savior who is so exuberantly alive! I rejoice also in Your promise to be with me continually—throughout time and eternity. These truths can sustain me through my worst trials and deepest disappointments. So help me to walk boldly with You along the path of Life, trusting confidently that You will never let go of my hand.
I enjoy worshiping You in a variety of ways—singing hymns and praise songs, studying and memorizing Your Word, praying individually and with others, glorying in the wonders of Your creation. Another way I worship You is by serving others and loving them with Your Love. Whatever I do, Lord, I want to do it all for Your Glory!
In Your victorious Name,
Amen
Narrator: To learn more about Tasha, please visit www.tashacobbsleonard.com. And be sure to check out her new devotional, Do It Anyway, available wherever you buy books.
If you’d like to hear more stories about the power of music, check out our interview with Gloria Gaynor.
Next week: Nika King
Next time on the Jesus Calling Podcast, we’ll hear from actress and producer Nika King, best known for her role as Leslie Bennett on the HBO television series Euphoria. Nika shares how she anchored herself in faith to keep from losing herself in Hollywood, and how the movie Sound of Hope changed her outlook on her own experiences in foster care.
Nika King: Every day that I wake up, I thank God, because this life is a vapor. And it’s in the waiting, in the setbacks, that faith is tested and refined. Trust in God is all I have.
