Believing That God Has Plans for Your Good: Scott Morrison & Preston Perry
This episode mentions violence and may not be suitable for all listeners.
Scott Morrison: You’ll find His blessing in His presence—not in the success or certainly not in material things and things of that nature. I mean, that stuff happens, but so does tragedy. So do trials. So does suffering. And you find His blessing, amazingly, in those circumstances, too.
Believing That God Has Plans for Your Good: Scott Morrison & Preston Perry – Episode #430
Narrator: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we’re joined by two remarkable guests: former Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison and evangelist Preston Perry. Both have navigated complex challenges, from political arenas to personal struggles, all while remaining deeply committed to their faith in God.
Let’s begin with Scott Morrison.
Scott Morrison: I’m Scott Morrison. I’m the former prime minister of Australia between 2018 and 2022. More importantly, I am husband to Jenny and my father to my two wonderful girls, Abbey and Lily, living back there in Sydney, Australia.
I got to know the Lord when I was about twelve years old. I grew up on the beach suburbs of Sydney with my parents and my older brother, Alan. My parents were very active in our local community church. They served in the youth ministries there. They live their faith out in their community, in their relationships. And that was my constant example before me.
My father was a local politician. He was the chairman of the parish council. He was doing his youth ministry work. He was a police officer. He was the mayor of the local government area. And so when I was a young boy, I used to campaign with him, putting up his signs and running around putting leaflets in. When I was a kid, my father would always be working in the afternoon, so my brother and I had no interest in politics. Back then, the constituents would ring your house, and dad wasn’t home, so I’d be sitting there, I was his office. And I’m listening to constituents, aged nine, about what was going on with potholes and goodness knows what and what people needed help. So in our home, it was not about what you accumulated as what you contributed, and I ended up in the area of political service.
“In our home, it was not about what you accumulated as what you contributed.” – Scott Morrison
Scott Enters the World of Politics
I worked in the private sector, found my way into politics and ran for parliament, and eventually, ended up sitting in the cabinet for around nine years. I served in the immigration and border protection portfolio, which was very tough. I worked in the Social Security Ministry and then as the treasurer, and then eventually, unexpectedly, became prime minister in 2018.
Political service, for me, was public service. I wasn’t as fascinated by politics as such. I was more into the public service side of it and just found my way into the politics side, which I enjoyed. But it’s a pretty brutal environment in which to live and work. You’ve got to have a high level of resilience to be able to perform effectively in it.
Faith in the Political Sphere
I don’t know how people do politics and don’t have faith. Frankly, I don’t know how they survive it. You’ve got to be able to know what you’re about and what you’re trying to achieve. And that can’t be about you.
“I don’t know how people do politics and don’t have faith. Frankly, I don’t know how they survive it. You’ve got to be able to know what you’re about and what you’re trying to achieve. And that can’t be about you.” – Scott Morrison
People were aware of my faith when I was in politics, but Australia’s a little different from the United States, and there is always a lot of cautiousness when politicians talk about their faith in public life. And so it was difficult to maintain that balance when it meant so much to me.
I found myself dealing with the challenges of office. We went headlong into the pandemic and bushfires, drought, floods, cyclones. It was an extraordinary period. It really was the most challenging period we’d seen since World War II.
But through all that, from a very early age in my family, that gave me the grounding in Christ and always made me understand that to live a life of service, you really had to sort of live a life of faith in your private life as well, and in your community, in your family. He gave me a sense of peace. He always gave me courage and strength. I was always on my knees in prayer. I was always looking to Him for all of that, all the time.
But what I really drew on with my faith was to give me that strength, to give me that endurance, to give me that resilience, to give me the hope and the optimism that I so often needed. And it was a refuge. It was a storehouse. It was everything over that period of time. He ensured that over the course of my life, I’d had the experience and the insights and other things that enabled me to lead when that was called upon.
“I really drew on my faith to give me that strength, to give me that endurance, to give me that resilience, to give me the hope and the optimism that I so often needed. And it was a refuge. It was a storehouse.” – Scott Morrison
You know, Jenny and I stood in the homes of people who had just been flooded or burnt to the ground, or blown down, and you just put your arm around them. And I’d often say to them, “Look, would you like me to pray for you?” And they never knocked me back. Just to offer comfort in situations like that, which they needed. And, as a prime minister, you were the leader of the nation, and to be able to provide that comfort was a privilege. But I just felt as a Christian, it was a ministry in some respects.
Leading with Love First
As Christians, we’re called to be loving. And I think the intersection between faith and politics and Christianity and politics, it can get a bit blurred in how it should be managed. I lived in this for a long time.
One of the things I found is that often people, particularly Christians, sort of thought that it was my job to make the nation more Christian. And I have a responsibility in that as a Christian, but so does everybody else. We can’t contract out our Christianity to make our society more Christian to politicians and to pastors. I mean, they all have roles to play. But if we want a more Christian society, well, we should do what the first church did, they just loved. And they were just Christians in their environment. And I think it’s really important that in a time when our societies are getting more secular, that we don’t lose sight of that. By all means, stand up for the principles of God, and then the Word of God and what His eternal standards are. Hold fast to those things. Let’s not forget what the goal is. The goal is to honor Him and glorify Him.
“By all means, stand up for the principles of God, and then the Word of God and what His eternal standards are. Hold fast to those things. Let’s not forget what the goal is. The goal is to honor Him and glorify Him.” – Scott Morrison
Give It All Or Nothing
If you can’t trust God with everything, you actually can’t trust Him with anything. If you can trust Him in the smallest of things, then of course you can trust Him in the biggest, but He really calls us to do it all in that sense. You don’t sort of go, “Oh, God, I’ll let you deal with my next big business presentation. I’m sure you can help me with that. But as for my cancer treatment and everything that’s going wrong with my kids, well, I’ll let you build up to that one.” No, no. Everything or nothing.
During my course in political life, I had times of incredible popularity. But at the time of my defeat, it was down the other end. That’s politics. People like you and don’t like you. And that is subject to many things. If you base your identity and your sense of well-being and peace of mind and happiness on this sort of stuff, well, I can assure you you’re going to struggle. You are, as a human being, created by His hand, in His image, for His glory. That means you’re special. He had His designs for you before you were even born. And when you ground your identity in that, then the storms come and you can weather them.
“You are, as a human being, created by His hand, in His image, for His glory. That means you’re special. He had His designs for you before you were even born. And when you ground your identity in that, then the storms come and you can weather them.” – Scott Morrison
I mean, yeah, I was a prime minister, and I’ve been a minister, and I’ve done a whole bunch of other things. I’m a dad and I’m a husband, and I love all that. That’s terrific. But who am I? I’m just someone God created and Jesus loves. When you really appreciate how loved you are by God, that He created you in His own mind with a sense of purpose and affection, then what we have then in Christ—in the sacrifice of Jesus to ensure that original creation, to have relationship with God—is then made whole again. You know, that changes everything.
Make a Habit of Talking to God
I think God loves it when we just talk to Him. You know, Jesus Calling, I got on the Jesus Calling App and Jenny was on the app too, and I can’t tell you the number of times when she would text me and she said, “Have you read this this morning?” And what I liked about it—and what I’ve always liked about it—is it’s so relational, it’s conversational with God, and it’s Him talking to you based on the scriptures. I’m just a layperson. I’m not a theologian. But after working with the Lord for over forty years, I sort of know my way, I’ve been on my way a bit around the scriptures and it’s rooted in all of that. But it just makes it really personal, which I think is so helpful.
I’m reading from Jesus Listens on August 6th:
Dearest Jesus,
Thank You that I am safe, secure, and complete in You. Help me to stop my anxious striving and just come to You with the matters that are on my heart. I can give all my worries and cares to You, I find rest in the shelter of Your Presence.
Whenever I wander away and leave You out of my life, I no longer feel complete. I need to make You central in my thoughts and feelings, my plans and actions. When You are the Center of my life, I’m able to live meaningfully, according to Your will.
I love to hear Your words of reassurance: “Take heart! I have overcome the world.” O Lord, in Your Presence I am indeed safe, secure, and complete!
In Your victorious Name,
Amen
Narrator: Be sure to check out Scott’s book, Plans For Your Good, available at your favorite retailer.
Stay tuned to Preston Perry’s story after a brief message.
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Our next guest is Preston Perry, a Christian apologist, poet, spoken word artist, and evangelist whose life was transformed through mentorship, personal tragedy, and a deepening faith in God, which he now shares through his words and ministry.
Preston Perry: My name is Preston Perry. I am a Christian from the south side of Chicago. I do podcasts with my wife, called With The Perrys. I’m a poet, spoken word performer, an apologist, and an evangelist seeking to make Jesus known. I’m married to a beautiful wife named Jackie. We have four children, their names are Sage, August, Autumn, and Eden. And I live in Atlanta, Georgia.
I’m from the south side of Chicago. My mom was a single parent who raised me and my siblings. I grew up in a lot of poverty-stricken areas. And so early on, when I was a child, I looked up to a lot of the wrong things.
But it wasn’t until I was in sixth grade when I was getting into a lot of trouble, and one of my teachers assigned a mentor to me. Her name was Miss Magnus. Miss Magnus told me that because of my anger and my behavior issues in school, that I needed an outlet. And she told me to write something for her, told me to write what I feel. I wrote what I felt, and she said, “This leans poetic.” She said, “I think you might have a gift, try writing me a poem.” I wrote her a poem, and when she read it, she cried at her desk, and she said, “You’re a poet.” And that was the first time that I saw my words impact someone. People just wrote me off as being bad, because no one helped to notice the gift that was in me. And so from there, I just wanted to use words, whether it was hip-hop, poetry, whether that was producing music. I just wanted to use words to impact people.
Strength & Peace in Tragedy
My grandmother, I think she lived out 1 Peter 3:15 the greatest I’ve ever seen somebody live it out, which was, “But in your hearts, honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense for anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you.”
My family, we went through a hard time in our lives when a family member was tragically shot and killed. So when I got older, I went into my grandmother’s room and I said, “Grandma, when Uncle Stan was killed, you had a strength, you had peace about yourself. And you were stronger than the rest of the family. Where did that come from? Because I’ve always wondered that. I always wanted to ask you that.” And she said something I’ll never forget. She said, “Preston, when my son was killed, I thought that I wasn’t going to make it. I went into the room and I asked the Lord, I said, ‘Lord, either give me the strength to be strong for my family or take me to glory right now.’” And she said, “At that moment, I entered into God’s rest, and I’ve been there ever since.” And I remember just the chills that I felt on my body and the goosebumps that I got because it was so powerful to me. And I think that moment was really important to me, even though I didn’t give my life to the Lord on that day. I think what my grandmother’s words showed me was that this God that she served was real and tangible. It wasn’t just behavior modification. It wasn’t just duties. It wasn’t just standing outside, passing out your literature. This real God was able to come and give her strength and joy and comfort her in her time of need.
“I think what my grandmother’s words showed me was that this God that she served was real and tangible. It wasn’t just behavior modification. It wasn’t just duties. It wasn’t just standing outside, passing out your literature. This real God was able to come and give her strength and joy and comfort her in her time of need.” – Preston Perry
Closer to God or Only Further From Guilt
I felt like God was chasing me by the people that He sent in my life. He would always send somebody in my life to just give me the gospel, love me well, show me that I was far away from Him. But I think every person in some way, shape, or form wants to escape guilt. We don’t want to feel guilty, right? Guilt is a horrible feeling. And I think sometimes we can convince ourselves that we’re closer to God, and we’re pleasing God more than we are just to escape guilt. I think I was one of those people who tried to convince myself that I was a Christian, tried to convince myself that God was not angry with the way that I was living my life.
And it wasn’t until a friend of mine got shot, and all of my friends who heard me talk about God in the past looked to me while he was lying on the floor bleeding, and asked me, “Preston, can you pray for him?” Now, they’re asking me to pray because I’m the only one who has this spiritual life, supposedly, right? And at that moment, I felt like my hypocrisy was just set so before me, I felt like I couldn’t pretend that I knew the Lord at a time like this. And I think God showed me how far I was away from Him. And He was like, “This is you. You’re dead in your trespasses of sin, and you need to be made alive in me.” And so God used that situation to lead me out of that environment.
And when I was in my aunt’s house living with her, she introduced me to a guy named Gary Brown. God had radically changed his life. He was an ex gang member, but God radically saved him. He was in seminary. He was going to Moody College in Chicago, and he took me under his wing. He discipled me, he mentored me. He taught me how to read the Bible. He showed me what true repentance was. He just lived his life out loud in front of me. And through Gary’s life, I gave my life to the Lord right in my room, and I asked the Lord, “Lord, forgive me for my sins and help me to love you like Gary loves you.” And at that moment, the Lord came into my heart and saved me. And I’ve been new ever since.
Keeping Motivations in Check
The first apologetic argument that I’ve ever gotten into was with a Jehovah’s Witness in college. I was saved for five months. I didn’t know what apologetics were, and I was just an evangelist on campus. And in walks this guy in my class with a Bible in his hand. And I look at him and I say, “Man are you a Christian?” And he says, “Yes, sort of, but probably not the type of Christian you think I am.” I said, “What does that mean?” He kind of brushed me off. And so I said, “What church do you go to?” And he said, “I go to the Kingdom Hall.” And I didn’t know what that was at the time. So then we started to talk and in our conversation, he started to just challenge me in all the things that I thought I knew. I believed that Jesus was Lord, but he didn’t. And he challenged me, and I didn’t know how to defend it. He believed things that I didn’t believe. So we got into this debate in class and got a small crowd forming around us. And in this debate, I mean, he just walked me up and down the classroom. I mean, he embarrassed me so badly, and I was ashamed that I wasn’t able to defend what I believed. I looked like I didn’t know what I was talking about. And my pride and my ego was wounded, you know?
And so I went home and I studied everything about Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’ve studied what they believe, I studied the founder, all of this stuff. And so I would go to school every single week looking for him, looking to vindicate myself. And the guy who led me to Christ picked me up from school one day and he said, “How was school?” And I said, “It was great because I had a conversation with that Jehovah’s Witness, and this time I stumped him in a conversation finally.” And I was so proud of myself. And he looked at me, stopped at the light, and said, “Preston, let me ask you a question. Are you still trying to win this guy’s heart?” And in my mind, it just froze because I was never trying to win this heart. So I said that to him, I said, “I was never trying to win his heart. I was always just trying to win an argument, you know, for the Lord.” And he corrected me. He said, “No, Preston, that’s not what we do it for.” Then he asked me, “What’s his last name?” And I didn’t know his last name. He said, “You’ve been talking to this guy for this long and you don’t know his last name?”
And God really used Gary to really challenge me in why I did apologetics and evangelism. That if I do it just to win an argument and not heart, what am I doing it for? Jesus came for souls. He didn’t come to look smart or intelligent or to look like He knew better than the next man, or just win arguments. He wanted to win people. And so if the information we know is what we find our identity in and not the God that we know, we’ll always treat people like projects and not image bearers.
“Jesus came for souls. He didn’t come to look smart or intelligent or to look like He knew better than the next man, or just win arguments. He wanted to win people. And so if the information we know is what we find our identity in and not the God that we know, we’ll always treat people like projects and not image bearers.“ – Preston Perry
Evangelism is Not One Dimensional
Throughout my whole Christian walk, prayer has always played a vital role because I don’t think that we should solely trust in the knowledge that we’ve obtained to be effective for us because people are nuanced. People are complex, right? And so saying a scripture or spewing a whole bunch of information that you’ve learned is not always going to be effective when people are complex with their own set of traumas and issues, right? I’ve learned in evangelism to ask good questions. Because when you ask good questions, people teach you how to serve them.
“I’ve learned in evangelism to ask good questions. Because when you ask good questions, people teach you how to serve them.” – Preston Perry
I tell people all the time that God is going to use you how He has uniquely made you. I think a lot of times when we think about evangelism, we think our evangelism has to look a certain way or our apologetics has to look a certain way. But if we think that, it’s almost a disservice to the person who created you, right? God is going to utilize you how He has uniquely made you. And so I don’t think you should think that your evangelism should look like mine, like walking up to strangers if that’s not the way God made you.
My wife is an introverted person, and I’m a very extroverted person. I’m very outgoing. I talk to strangers. I love getting to meet new people. I can spark a conversation with almost anyone. And my wife is just completely different. But God still uses my wife greatly in the body of Christ. And I think evangelism and apologetics is not doing what men are afraid to do, but it’s about doing what God told you to do. I think it’s more about obedience to God than fearlessness to men. And I think that if we think about evangelism as being obedient to God, not being fearless before men, God will be able to use us how He has uniquely made us. That God, this sovereign, transcendent God, will present opportunities for us to be used by Him. And so I think that’s the thing that I want to drive home the most is that, no, don’t think that you have to look a certain way or act a certain way to be used by God, to share the gospel with the outside world. God will bring people to you. And I think my life and my wife’s life has been a real testimony to that.
Narrator: To learn more about Preston Perry, visit www.preston-perry.com, and check out his new book, How To Tell The Truth: The Story of How God Saved Me To Win Hearts, Not Just Arguments, wherever you buy books.
If you’d like to hear more stories about truly seeing others, check out our interview with Terence Lester.
Next week: Sherry Hoppen
Next time on the Jesus Calling Podcast, we’ll hear from addiction recovery coach Sherry Hoppen, who openly shares her battle against alcoholism and how she was surprised to discover that no matter the weight of her guilt and shame, God never once left her alone.
Sherry Hoppen: There is no greater comfort than talking to that person that knows exactly what you’re going through, no matter what your situation is—whether it’s addiction, grief, whatever you’re going through. Living in freedom from addiction to alcohol for over ten years, I work daily to embrace a life that is free from the pull of addiction, and live a life that’s filled with new joy and peace that can only come from surrendering our addictions to God.
